Licensing and registration of clubs amendment act northern ireland 2011

Therefore, if the amendment passes, it is an opportune moment for the Minister to issue guidance to the registered club sector to clarify the new situation. Finally, I want to talk about minors in clubs. For a number of reasons, my party will not support any amendment on the time until which minors are allowed in licensed premises in registered clubs.

Consistency is required. My understanding is that the same restriction of 9. Therefore, I do not think that it is fair to treat clubs in an inconsistent way. We tried to be consistent throughout the process in applying one change to both sectors.

I understand the point that clubs make about prize-givings or summer games that go on quite late, with kids perhaps going into a bar after 9. However, just because I understand it does not mean that I have to agree with it. Everybody can take their own view on those issues. However, as a father, I feel uneasy about those amendments. We are not talking about children aged 16 or 17 being allowed into premises. We are talking about younger children. I have difficulty and personal unease about amending the law to allow children to be in registered premises later than 9.

To do so would be inconsistent and would run contrary to what I thought was an emerging consensus about young people and alcohol.

Far from being puritanical or going down a prohibitionist-type route, I thought that we were being a bit more mature and sensible about how we expose young people in our society to alcohol. Everybody knows the difficulties about exposing young people to alcohol. Between 9. My colleagues and I are uneasy and concerned about the impression that such a change would give, the inconsistency with other measures that we are trying to take in the Bill and with other measures that the Minister is exploring elsewhere in trying to clamp down on the misuse and abuse of alcohol.

Although I understand the point that is being put forward, we have to be careful about the message that we send out about young people and alcohol. Here, if we choose to pass one or other of those amendments, we would be saying that young people could be in bars and exposed to the consumption of alcohol well into the night, even, as one amendment suggests, right up to I do not know about anybody else, but I would not want any of my kids in a bar or club until normal closing time.

We need to be careful about the message that we are sending out about the use and, more importantly, the abuse of alcohol and its effect on young people. It is not that other countries are without their problems.

However, they certainly have a better attitude towards alcohol. We do not have that here. Everybody knows the problems. The Member who is about to intervene frequently tells us about what goes on in streets in his hometown.

I will give way to him now if he wants to tell us about that. The Member may be able to hear the electrical interference. Anyone who has a mobile phone, please switch it off. Do not switch it to silent; switch it off. Thank you, a LeasCheann Comhairle. To follow that logic, there should, to some degree, be a restriction on drinking in the house, because children are probably exposed to that drink culture at home far more than they would be in the type of clubs that we are talking about.

The people in charge of the clubs or teams have a very serious supervisory role in looking after the children. I thank the Member for his intervention ; he is right that there has been a change in culture around the consumption of alcohol. People have exercised freedom of choice over where they consume alcohol, no doubt helped by pricing considerations, which is our other concern, so that is a very valid point.

I would not want the Member to start encouraging colleagues who may want to look at the consumption of alcohol in the home as well. There is a very real difference when it comes to us, as a legislature, controlling behaviour in the home.

There is a marked difference in what we, as an institution, can do about the consumption of alcohol where we have control over it. However, I do not think that that is assisted by sending out the message, as it may be interpreted, that it is OK to sit in the bar of a registered club until It is inconsistent with the general movement on this issue, which is not to be draconian or puritanical, but sensible and moderate.

The fact that children can only stay in a licensed premises until 9. I do not think that there is any compelling evidence to push it beyond that time. It is not that the evidence from the registered club sector is not useful, but I think that it is outweighed by other, social considerations about the consumption of alcohol and the exposure of young people to that. I have previously highlighted what I thought were other inconsistencies in the Bill, which have been dealt with by subsequent amendments from the Minister.

It would be a backward step to make either amendment. We should be sending out a very clear message, and I think that we all share the view, that we want people to be careful about the consumption of alcohol, the way that it is consumed and the way that people are exposed to it in our society.

I reiterate that we, as a party, do not support either amendment. However, we will be supporting the other amendments, particularly those on the shelf life of penalty points, as two years is a reasonable and sensible compromise. During a presentation from stakeholders, I had some sympathy with them about the fact that the shelf life of penalty points —three years — is a long time.

That is quite draconian, particularly when huge supermarkets can sell alcohol to hundreds of thousands of people in that three-year period.

It can be easy enough to make a mistake twice or three times in three years. It is a more common sense approach, but I certainly do not agree with shortening the period to 12 months. Amendment No 10 is about prohibiting young persons from bars. I understand what stakeholders said about sports clubs, particularly in the summer, holding events that might not finish until 8. However, I agree with Mr Hamilton: we have a growing problem with alcohol.

If we are taking measures such as banning irresponsible drinks promotions, and if we are trying to tackle the problem of alcohol abuse in our whole population, we should not encourage our young people to stay in bars, where adults are consuming alcohol, for too long. We support amendment No As regards restriction on advertisements relating to functions in registered clubs, I am certain that clubs have, in general, very efficient means of informing their members of coming events through club newsletters or their membership list.

They can circulate notices in advance to let people know. It is certainly not essential for them to have public advertisements. One of the things that I raised in the previous debate on this Bill was that some clubs have a membership of or 1, people, so it is very difficult for them to keep in constant touch with their membership.

Some of their members probably live miles away from the club premises, so the only way in which people can find out whether there are functions in a particular club is through advertising. The Chairperson said that perhaps the Minister could issue advice to clubs about advertising to members only. Having spoken to a number of club members, I know that clubs are dying a slow death. Many clubs close their premises, perhaps on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, because they are not being used.

There has to be a better mechanism for them to contact their members than just writing letters. I accept what the Member is saying, but we have to be fair to pubs because they are also dying on their feet.

We need to be fair to commercial premises as well. I will keep an open mind and wait to hear what the Minister will say about guidance being issued. I agree with amendment Nos 2, 4 and 6. Indeed, three years could be open to abuse by individuals with a grudge against a club, and I am the first to recognise that such a scenario could arise. I agree with my colleague that reducing it to 12 months could open up a scenario in which, if you are clever and time your abuses correctly, you might get away with it.

Therefore, two years is sensible, and my party supports that proposal. I find amendment No 11intriguing. However, it is also intriguing to drive past adverts for the Civil Service Sports Social Club, which is a short distance from the House. If I were to walk through the door of that club to avail myself of the meal being advertised, I wonder which three members would sign me in.

I have my doubts as to whether anyone would sign me in. As I told the Minister previously, I doubt whether a member of the Civil Service club would sign me in to anywhere, although that might be more to do with my attitude to alcohol. I find all that intriguing. Nevertheless, common sense tells me that it is a bit like the warning on cigarette boxes: if the warning is there, at least we would have fulfilled our part by stating that a club should, by and large, be for members only.

For that reason, I will not oppose amendment No I know that some clubs — generally the smaller ones — need to find ways to increase revenue flows. The thing that amuses me about that is that those clubs will not be going out with huge advertising campaigns. I doubt whether even the larger Belfast clubs will run major campaigns. That having been said, it is hard to know what effect amendment No 11 will or will not have, although it would certainly do away with the anomaly of having to drive past advertising that should not be there.

Amendment No 10 refers to young persons. The Committee and the House is fully aware of my concerns about young people and drinking. The irony is that I concur fully with the second group of amendments, which try to effect a mechanism to reduce the level of underage drinking in Northern Ireland.

That is aimed at promoting sensible attitudes towards alcohol. However, we have to be open and honest: in Northern Ireland, and probably across the UK and Ireland , we have a huge difficulty with attitudes to alcohol. People in this country do not go out for a quiet half pint or pint.

That just does not happen. The culture is that you go out and drink the place dry, after which someone carries you home, or, as my wife could tell you, the Ambulance Service ends up carrying you into hospital with someone else carrying you home the following morning. As a parent, I find the proposal to increase the present watershed for children in clubs from 9.

I have had to attend functions in clubs with my family, because, let us be honest, these days, some clubs hold wedding ceremonies and all sorts of other ceremonies. Consequently, if it is a family function, you take your children along. The fact is that, as usual at such events, I sit drinking my Diet Coke, feeling totally out of place and hearing things that I probably should not hear because others are not drinking Diet Coke.

Therefore, under no circumstances would I want my child to be there after 9. Unfortunately, the reality is that, beyond 9. What happens after that? The entertainment comes on, and, unfortunately, the drink goes in. Will the Member refer all remarks through the Chair? Apologies, a LeasCheann Comhairle. When the Committee was being lobbied by and holding meetings with the Federation of Clubs over a couple of years, members at first argued against any extension of hours or young people being allowed into clubs.

During Committee Stage, sports clubs came in — mainly the GAA and others — and said that, because most of their sports for young people were played on summer evenings, some did not finish until 9. Therefore, they wanted to be in a position to take young people back to their club to give them a mineral and a bag of crisps and maybe even to discuss match tactics, which needed hours to be extended. I talked to somebody recently who was going to collect their child who was playing a match in Belfast, and they told their child to wait for them at the club because it was safe and not to stand about anywhere else that might have left them open to danger.

There are reasons why we changed our mind on that matter in Committee, not least that it offered the best possible way forward for clubs and for kids who participate in sports. I thank the Member for his intervention and for reminding me about those issues, which we looked at. I have been in many clubs, and I have seen how junior clubs work. I do not buy into the argument that anybody training beyond 9. I have seen many a club that has its youth teams in after 9. They certainly are not taken into the bar to be addressed on how to improve their sporting performance.

I do not think that anybody could stand up in the House and argue that the best place to give young people, or older people for that matter, any direction on their sporting prowess is in a bar, while everybody else there is probably getting less and less coherent as the night goes on.

I do not think that that is a sensible or a sane argument. I certainly do not think that it is an argument that you will find most parents in Northern Ireland buying into. That is my fear about all of this. The idea that we can have children in clubs beyond 9. I do not care whether those parents send their children to the sporting organisations that have been mentioned here. I send my children to sporting organisations, and I would not like to think for one second that they would be asked to go into such an environment after 9.

In fact, I would not like them to be in such an environment at any time, but that is another matter. Children might be at family functions in clubs until 9. I have no issue with that.

I have no issue with the law as it stands. However, there is something completely inconsistent about the idea of having children in that atmosphere any later than 9. It will send out the wrong message to our young people if we keep them in clubs until As I said, all the formalities are over by 9. As a parent, I certainly do not want to send the message to my children that that is morally acceptable.

Members opposite have raised the issue of people consuming alcohol at home. I put it on record that I have witnessed parents in public forums handing over alcohol to children who are nine and 10 years of age. Whether that is morally acceptable is a judgement that society has to make. I think that it is totally wrong that that happens in our society.

We can bury our heads in the sand, but it happens, and drink is given out freely by some parents to their children in their home even though they are under age.

That is a moral judgement to be made by those parents. Does it lead to a better attitude to alcohol in the home? I have strong doubts about that. I have worked with organisations that have looked after those already addicted to alcohol even before they reach the legal age to drink, and it is unfortunate that that happens in our society.

It is regrettable that underage drinking takes place in homes. I am not going on a moral crusade, but I ask parents to think long and hard about their attitudes to alcohol and how they promote a more responsible attitude towards it to their children.

There are dangers, and we cannot bury our heads in the sand. If alcohol were not so popular and if we could remove it from society, we could avoid a massive dent in our health budget. As I said, my wife, who is a paramedic, would probably be unemployed. If those were taken away, our Ambulance Service would be decimated, as it would no longer be required. However, that is not the case; that is not how society works. It is inconsistent of us to talk about moving to First, I would like to explain the approach I took at Consideration Stage and since on the substantive matters in the amendments in group 1.

At Consideration Stage, I said that there were three matters that I wished to consider further: young persons on licensed club premises after 9. I stress that all three matters are in respect of licensed clubs only. Whatever view the Assembly may take on those three matters — the Executive have a view, which I will confirm shortly — the amendments tabled today by Mr McCann, Mr Brady, Mr Gallagher and Mrs Bradley impact on licensed clubs only. I am sorry, I will correct that: children and young people being on premises will impact on sporting clubs only.

Although the wider amendments will impact on licensed clubs, the proposal in respect of underage people is in respect of sporting clubs only. Although I agree with the previous Member who spoke about the drinking culture and the problems that it causes, particularly the health-related problems, there appears to be an implication that, if you allow your children to be looked after in a sporting club by people who are responsible and are ensuring that there is discipline etc, suddenly after 9.

I argue that that is simply not the case and that people in sporting clubs, such as the coaches who look after the teams, are very responsible. I also presume that they have all been vetted under child protection measures. Such people do not change. An extra hour or whatever it may be will not make a huge difference.

Those people will still be responsible for the children they bring into the club, and they will continue to be responsible until the parents of those children pick them up.

I just wanted to make that point. I thank the Member for that intervention. Although I am mindful of my Executive responsibility for the various matters that are under debate, I also think that, in the broad sense, that observation is correct. Parents and other adults in licensed premises, of whatever nature, display high standards of responsibility. Sporting clubs have a slightly different character, and parents and other adults display the particular responsibility that applies in those premises.

However, I stress that the amendments that deal with penalty points and the advertising of functions extend to all clubs and only to clubs. I also stress that the proposals that deal with underage people being in licensed premises extend only to sporting clubs. There is a difference in the proposals that has to be acknowledged.

That must be acknowledged, because we are legislators and we have to create certainty so that there is no doubt about what we are legislating for. I felt that further assessment was required on the three matters that I just mentioned, and that has been reflected in the debate.

I also felt that, whatever way the vote on those three matters fell at Consideration Stage, the past couple of weeks have demonstrated that it is useful to bear down on various legislative proposals to see whether there is a better way forward.

I also acknowledge Mr Gallagher and Mrs Bradley for the amendments that they tabled for today. It is always useful to keep interrogating clauses to determine whether a better clause could be drafted at a subsequent stage, including Further Consideration Stage. Without prejudice to the way in which the votes will go today, I acknowledge all those who usefully contributed to bearing down on the matters in question so that we could get to a place where Members have come to new levels of understanding about the right course to take, because it is clear that opinion has varied, even in the past couple of weeks.

Having said that, in the run-up to amendments being tabled and in advance of the Executive meeting last Thursday, I thought that there was an opportunity to get broad agreement on the advertising of functions. However, I was less clear about the two other matters that I mentioned. That is why I did not bring a paper to the Executive about those matters, instead bringing only one on the advertising of functions. However, I thought it useful that the two amendments were tabled and that the Assembly had the opportunity to consider and vote on all the options.

The original intention behind the amendments was that, for offences named in schedule 1, a registration would not be endorsed where a second conviction was given within 12 months of the first. The amendment that Mr Gallagher and Mrs Bradley tabled would mean that a registration would not be endorsed if a second conviction were given within two years of the first. However, I stress that those amendments relate only to schedule 1 offences.

However, there seems to be emerging consensus on the Floor that it might be appropriate for the Assembly to consider those matters further. As with much legislation in the Assembly and other jurisdictions, different thresholds are always being created. The schedule to the Bill, for example, contains various thresholds for penalty points. That is appropriate, and that is why I opposed an amendment tabled by Mr McCann at Consideration Stage to treat all offences the same.

His amendment proposed that all offences, whether major or minor, would be subject to the same level of penalty points. That is not a good principle of law. Offences should accumulate differential penalty points to reflect the more serious nature of some. When it comes to thresholds, however, it is reasonable for the Assembly to consider whether, given the difference in penalty points for minor and major offences, there should also be different time frames within which those penalty points could be endorsed on a certificate of registration.

That was a reasonable question, and it is a reasonable debate for the Assembly to have. It is the view of the Executive and, therefore, my view that the Bill is correct: a court could endorse penalty points on a certificate of registration if the same offence was committed twice within three years, and it could take into account any points accumulated over a three-year period.

However, I hear what the Assembly is saying, and it is for the Assembly to decide how it wishes to proceed. Amendment Nos 9 and 10 would allow a young person under 18 to be in the bar area of a sporting club until The existing 9. Sporting clubs provide a valuable service to the community in many different ways. The Executive have their view of the Bill, but it is fair to comment on points raised by Members who contributed to the debate.

I confirm that the amendments tabled by Mr McCann and Mary Bradley would impact only on sporting clubs. That is an important point to understand fully. A further question was raised about the need to be consistent. It is already the case, under clubs legislation in Northern Ireland, that sporting clubs are treated differently from other clubs. Therefore, there is a prima facie argument that to be consistent with that current law, which exempts sporting clubs, we should consider whether the licensing hours for sporting clubs should also have a different provision from any other licensed premises.

That is a matter for the Assembly to consider. It is not a matter for me to influence one way or the other. I hold to the Executive position that the appropriate time for children to be on licensed premises in sporting clubs is up to 9.

As has been stated by various Members, amendment No 11 is a different matter entirely. The amendment to article 38 of the Registration of Clubs Order will mean that, when advertising a function, clubs must ensure that the advertisement states clearly that the function being advertised is for members only.

Failure to do so will constitute an offence. I am pleased to say that, following Executive approval for such an amendment, I am happy to support that amendment. It believes that registered club membership, especially in larger sporting clubs, is spread over areas too wide to be easily reached via notices placed in the premises.

The federation believes that, to maximise their fund-raising capacity, clubs should be able to notify their members of functions by advertising them in the media. There are, however, safeguards. Article 30 of the Registration of Clubs Order specifies conditions for functions in registered clubs. I want to reassure Members, in particular Mrs Anna Lo and the Chairperson of the Committee, and confirm that, further to the passage of the Bill, in the event that the new clause is accepted by the Assembly, the Department will issue guidance about the advertising of functions.

I reassure Members that that will be included in the guidance notes issued to clubs in respect of the exercise of that matter. I checked out that matter with an official from the club, who is, in fact, an official in DSD. The irony there is very rich. That official came back to me on the matter and put to me the argument that, having taken legal advice, the club was of the view that what it was doing was indeed permitted under current law.

The club did not take legal advice in the past couple of weeks; it had taken legal advice prior to that. I find that very interesting. Does the Minister agree that that proves the point that I was trying to make, which is that there is huge confusion in respect of the matter? Although the Civil Service club may have the resources to take legal advice, that is probably not available to many other clubs in Northern Ireland.

Does he agree that that highlights the fact that there is huge confusion about what is and is not permissible and that clear guidance and a tidying-up of this law is very much required? It demonstrates three things. First, it demonstrates that there may be confusion, or, secondly, it may demonstrate that, if people ask a lawyer to give them the right answer, they will get the right answer.

Thirdly, it confirms that there is a need to create certainty and avoid any doubt. The new clause on the advertising of functions in clubs for club members only and the guidance that will be issued on that will create certainty and avoid doubt. It will ensure that the Civil Service club is, without any difficulty, on the right side of the law.

I welcome the fact that Members have broadly endorsed that shift in the character of the Bill, and I want to acknowledge the role of Mr McCann and Mr Brady in creating the opportunity for the Executive to go in that direction.

I also acknowledge the comments of Mr Hamilton and his party colleague Mr Craig on the issue of whether it should be one, two or three years when it comes to endorsement of the certificate of registration. I commend to the House the amendment on the advertising of functions and reiterate the view of the Executive on the other two matters.

I understand why Members have tried to scope the issue of endorsement of the certificate of registration and the issue of minors being on sporting licensed premises after 9. I commend my amendment to the House. I support the amendments that I have before me. The young people who play for these clubs deserve the opportunity to be appreciated on club premises the same as everyone else. They are young players who need encouragement, and they will be doing that in the company of their parents and the club stewards, who are very responsible people.

The amendment would mean that young people could remain on the premises of a sporting club — only a sporting club — until I support all the amendments.

Amendment No 1 has not been moved, so I will not call it. New Clause. We come now to the second group of amendments for debate. With amendment No 7 , it will be convenient to debate amendment Nos 8, 12 and The amendments deal with the regulation of irresponsible drinks promotions and alcohol pricing for registered clubs. Amendment Nos 12 and 13 are consequential to amendment Nos 7 and 8. I beg to move amendment No 7 : After clause 9, insert the following new clause:.

After Article 31 of the Registration of Clubs Order insert—. As I did at Consideration Stage, when a similar group of amendments was moved dealing with other licensed premises, save clubs, I apologise to the Assembly for the late introduction of amendment Nos 7 and 8. This is unusual practice but, as Members are aware, the issue of irresponsible drinks promotion became more crucial and critical during the latter part of last summer, in particular.

Phase 2 is scheduled to come into effect in April and the following provisions are expected to be included in phase 2. The following provisions will not come into effect until at least October , but are expected to come into effect by October You may also request your own personal information, via a Right of Access Request. Alcohol licensing and registration of clubs Topics: Law and legislation. Social law. Most recent news items First substantial changes to licensing laws in 25 years to take place in October.

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